Animorphs - The Entire Series

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The stated premise at the start was that an authoritarian, fascist American empire would be better for the Yeerks to colonise somehow... I don't think it would be "easier," they're doing it by stealth regardless, but I suppose you could argue that it might make their eventual hosts more amenable/pliable to being part of a similar kind of alien empire. Though I still think that's a stretch.

Agree about the very solidly 90s view of history on display here, though I also think the US and UK were indisputably the "good guys" in World War II - it's just that contrary to Marco's assertion, the Holocaust or even the Nazis' earlier oppression of the Jews was not the catalyst for the war or the reason Americans are down there fighting and dying.
More moral complexity on the way- the French convoy suggests the Americans may not be the good guys this time around. This has been a great book, and the setting of a fascist alt-history America would be incredibly heavy going for the intended audience.
I don't know if it's in the spirit of the thread , but even as a cynical foreigner, it was tough watching a whining orange fascist tweet about there being Many Fine People on both sides or whatever. It must have been devastating for actual americans.
I am really surprised at the extent to which "actually nazis are indisputably bad" has to be re-emphasised every decade or so...
Chapter 36
Cassie


quote:

I rolled over. The Visser cried out in pain. He tried to get up, but he couldn't use his hands; they were held together by the handcuffs.

Tobias lay bleeding.

<Tobias! Demorph!>

But then, to my amazement, he simply sat up. The bullet holes in his chest were gone!

<It's true,> he whispered, touching his chest with a Hork-Bajir claw. <Just Jake. The rest of us ... we can't be killed.>

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

I felt the bullets hit me. Neck. Head. Shoulder. Head.

I felt the impact, power blows. I felt sharp, overwhelming pain. And then ...

I was still alive.

The tank column rolled by. Infantrymen rushed up alongside the tanks to surround us. They waved guns at a wolf and a monster, scared of both, unsure what to do.

Visser Four tried to crawl away but one of the soldiers gave him a kick in the stomach that dropped the Controller on his face.

An officer pulled his pistol from a holster, walked cautiously up to me, held the barrel against my head, and ...

BLAM! BLAM!

I fell over.

I stood up.

"C'est pas possible!" the officer gasped in French.

"Es ist ein wolfman," one of the soldiers said in German.

French and Germans together. Not Germans alone.

I looked at the insignia on the epaulet of the officer. It was a shield, slashed down the middle at an angle, half of it the French tricolor, blue, white, and red, the other half a stylized black eagle.

<What is going on?> Tobias wondered, as confused as I was. <This isn't the way it was! This isn't right!>

The soldiers, the French and German soldiers, kept their guns trained on us. They were confused and afraid.
I could identify.

I looked at the soldiers. They were a mix of old men and young kids, some who looked no more than fifteen. Some of the older ones could have been my grandfather.

The French officer said something about "le capitalne." The captain. The Germans agreed with whatever he'd said. I think he'd said they should all wait for the captain to get there.

Several of the soldiers broke out cigarettes. Some drank from their canteens. The tanks rolled slowly by.

Visser Four raised himself to a sitting position. The jeep hauling the Time Matrix had pulled off the road. He was edging, ever so slowly ...

<Don't let him reach that thing,> Tobias said in thought-speak.

The French officer understood immediately. He jerked his head and two of his men dragged the Controller back to where we sat in our weird little standoff.

"I just want to know one thing, Andalites: How did you follow me? I have the Time Matrix! How did you follow me? And why, why, why don't you die?"

<Visser Three's been trying to kill us for some time, now,> Tobias said. <We're hard to kill.>

The Controller made a face of hatred and resentment. "I should have used the Time Matrix to destroy Visser Three. That bungling fool!"

<We'd have helped you,> Tobias said with a laugh. Then, privately, to me, he said, <Cassie, if we can't be killed, we don't need to worry about these soldiers. We can take the Time Matrix right now.>

<Yeah. I ... I guess that's true. But, I don't know, it's weird. I mean, I guess we are sort of immortal for now, but who knows? A gun is still a gun. Are you a hundred-percent sure?>

Tobias made a Hork-Bajir smile. <Ninety-nine percent. The remaining one percent says if we push it we're toast.>

Suddenly another jeep-type car came rumbling up along the line of tanks. An officer, a German, jumped out and trotted over to us.

In a mix of French and German the soldiers and their officer explained this exceedingly unusual situation. The captain was a middle-aged man with a lined, scarred face and tired eyes. He obviously knew about the big, glowing globe. He seemed to know, too, about the prisoner, Visser Four.

But seeing a Hork-Bajir sitting there beside a seemingly tame and unkillable - wolf was new. He leaned close to Tobias and gingerly touched his wrist blade.

<I won't hurt you,> Tobias said.

The captain answered in German. Then tried French. Finally, excellent English. "Do you understand English?"

<Yes, we do,> I said.

He snapped his head around. There was a quick burst of German including a word that sounded like "wolf" and another that was very recognizable: "Frankenstein."

<He thinks you're a monster, Tobias.>

Then, in English once more, he said, "I do not know how a monster and a talking wolf come to be here. Explain."

I started to answer. Not to explain, because explaining would have been utterly impossible. Or at least it would have taken a solid week.

But then, I saw the old man who'd been driving the captain's jeep climb down from behind the wheel. He was in his fifties, at least, although his uniform indicated a low rank. He was stocky, not very tall. His black hair was parted high on his head. His eyes were dark and intense. He wore a small mustache.

A style of mustache known everywhere as a Hitler mustache.

Obligatory Hitler appearance.

I do like Cassie's distinction between answering and explaining.

Chapter 37
Rachel


quote:

Far below us, Tobias and Cassie seemed to be chatting with Nazi soldiers guarding Visser Four. They were problem number two, as far as I was concerned.

Problem number one? The tanks that were rolling toward the beach. Huge, clanking monsters armored to withstand a direct hit from a cannon.

I have several powerful morphs. But none that would so much as annoy a tank.

However, the tank hatches were open. Their officers or drivers or whatever stood with heads and shoulders visible. No one was shooting at them. They had not reached the battle.

When they did, the invasion of Normandy would end in utter defeat for the invaders.

<We have to stop them,> I said.

Marco snorted angrily. <How? Morph to elephant and go one-on-one with a tank and you'll end up roadkill.>

<Our morphing ability is a potent weapon, Rachel, but useless here,> Ax said.

<We're stopping them,> I said flatly. <That road is narrow. It's cut deep. Kill one tank and the others will have a hard time going around it. At least we'd slow them down.>

<Yeah, then one of us gets to the ships offshore and directs them where to fire,> Marco said. <Great in theory. Just one problem: How do a bunch of birds kill a tank?>

<I don't know, all right?> I admitted. <I just know we have to!>

<I may have an idea,> Ax said. <I have been observing your primitive human weapons. Several are fascinating. Most could be very easily improved upon, and ->

<Get to the point!> I yelled.

<The small, hand-held explosive devices. They are roughly spherical in shape with a ludicrously crude priming device. They are thrown and ->

Marco said, <Hand grenades?>

<They are very weak explosives,> Ax said. <However, within the confined space of a tank's interior they could ->

<If I had lips and you had a mouth I'd kiss you!> I said. <Hand grenades! That's it! We'll drop hand grenades down the hatch of the lead tank.>

<How do we carry one? How do we pull the pin?> Marco demanded.

I laughed. <Details, Marco. Minor details. Let's find some grenades.>

We flew back over the bluff. I wasn't going down to the beach if I could avoid it. The bodies down there were so thick on the ground that in some places we could have stepped from body to body without ever touching the sand.

Fire was still pouring down from the protected positions on the bluff. Landing craft were still disgorging men. It was a second wave, I suppose. A whole new assault, adding new victims. Like cattle going down the chute to the slaughtering floor.
But, of course, cattle don't know what's corning. Humans do. They saw the bodies of their fellow soldiers. They heard the explosions. They smelled the death. And they still came.

War is obscene, the worst thing humans do. But warriors, the individual men, are the very best of humanity. Not because they are willing to kill. But because they are willing to risk death, to sacrifice themselves for others.

I was high in the air, not safe, but so, so much safer. I felt like a coward.

<Over here!> Marco said. <They're issuing grenades to some guys down at the base of the bluff. There's an open case of them.>

<Okay. I'm biggest,> I said. <I'll do it.>

<Are you confident that you can carry the weight?> Ax asked.

<I don't know. Bald eagles snatch whole salmon out of the water. How much can a hand grenade weigh?>

<How much does a salmon weigh?> Marco answered rhetorically.

I floated on a high breeze coming off the water. My wings were filled by warm June thermals. I wondered if the warm updrafts were strengthened by the heat of red-hot gun barrels.

A dozen guys were huddled together at the base of the bluff. Americans. Or at least, I reminded myself, they should have been Americans.

They looked lost and scared and exhausted. Their sergeant had a steel ammunition box open between his knees. He was handing out grenades, two at a time.

It would take speed and precision. And a distraction.

<Marco? Ax? I need that guy to look away.>

<Yeah. We're on it.>

Marco and Ax, an osprey and a harrier, formed up beside me. We'd have looked weird and out of place. If anyone had had time to bird-watch.

<Now!>

Ax and Marco spilled air, narrowed their tails, and plunged.

Down, down, down!

I went after them, twenty feet behind. I could feel the air turbulence from their wings.

No problem, I told myself. Marco and Ax swoop close, the sergeant looks away, I snatch the grenades out of his hand, and -

CRUMPF!

The mortar shell landed in the middle of the men.

The shock wave knocked Ax and Marco down like they were flies hit by a giant swatter.

Any thoughts about Rachel's meditation on war and warriors? How much of Rachel's sentiment is influenced by her situation? Also, if it were Cassie, or Marco, or Jake, or Tobias, or Ax, thinking, what would their attitudes be?
I think it's a common and intellectually dishonest way of thinking. (On KA's part, not just Rachel's, because I suspect it's what she also thinks). If you are going to argue that risking death to protect others is valorous - and it is - then you can't just fall back on cliches about how war is the worst thing, the most obscene thing humans do. If it's a just war, then it's a just war. It's not pleasant but it's no less valorous for the nation to fight fascism on a grand scale than it is for the individual soldier to fight it on a personal scale. Would it not be more obscene to sit back and argue that nothing is worth fighting over, when the issue at stake here is aggressive expansionary Nazi fascism and the Holocaust?

The flipside of this is the lies that society then tells itself when engaging in wars that are plainly unnecessary and unjust - continuing to valourise the individual soldier even if you object to, say, the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. If the war itself is evil and wrong then signing up to fight it is also not exactly a noble deed.

On a story note here - this chapter really falls flat because the stakes are gone. They've already established that they're going to have to use the Time Matrix to go back to the start and set history on the "correct" path again, so dicking around with tanks and grenades is a waste of time.

freebooter posted:

I think it's a common and intellectually dishonest way of thinking. (On KA's part, not just Rachel's, because I suspect it's what she also thinks).

Yeah, if anything this seems to be a much better match for Cassie's thinking, and as mentioned Cassie was basically her soapbox character.

freebooter posted:


On a story note here - this chapter really falls flat because the stakes are gone. They've already established that they're going to have to use the Time Matrix to go back to the start and set history on the "correct" path again, so dicking around with tanks and grenades is a waste of time.
I think some of it is that they've already established that the French and germans are working together and that Hitler is some low-ranking soldier and not, well, Hitler. So now it's an open question as to who the aggressors are in this war and why, and there's a good chance our heroes are going to murder a bunch of people fighting against an invasion of american fascists. I don't know, I could see that causing anxiety to me as a kid.

freebooter posted:

I think it's a common and intellectually dishonest way of thinking. (On KA's part, not just Rachel's, because I suspect it's what she also thinks). If you are going to argue that risking death to protect others is valorous - and it is - then you can't just fall back on cliches about how war is the worst thing, the most obscene thing humans do. If it's a just war, then it's a just war. It's not pleasant but it's no less valorous for the nation to fight fascism on a grand scale than it is for the individual soldier to fight it on a personal scale. Would it not be more obscene to sit back and argue that nothing is worth fighting over, when the issue at stake here is aggressive expansionary Nazi fascism and the Holocaust?

The flipside of this is the lies that society then tells itself when engaging in wars that are plainly unnecessary and unjust - continuing to valourise the individual soldier even if you object to, say, the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. If the war itself is evil and wrong then signing up to fight it is also not exactly a noble deed.

I mean, I will say I think the argument here is that, even if the war is unjust and unnecessary, the soldiers are willing to die to protect their fellow soldiers, and there's something noble about the willingness to die to protect another person. It's the whole bible quote that "There is no greater love than this, that a man be willing to lay down his life for his friends."

Ravenfood posted:

I think some of it is that they've already established that the French and germans are working together and that Hitler is some low-ranking soldier and not, well, Hitler. So now it's an open question as to who the aggressors are in this war and why, and there's a good chance our heroes are going to murder a bunch of people fighting against an invasion of american fascists. I don't know, I could see that causing anxiety to me as a kid.

I think I agree with you. We, and the Animorphs, don't know what the war is about at all (although Marco, Rachel and Ax think they do). History has been changed to the extent that the war has no significance to us. Are the Franco-Germans the bad guys? Are the British Americans the bad guys? Are there any bad guys? What does it even mean in this case to be a bad guy? We don't have the context to understand what's going on here or pass judgement.

Epicurius posted:

I mean, I will say I think the argument here is that, even if the war is unjust and unnecessary, the soldiers are willing to die to protect their fellow soldiers, and there's something noble about the willingness to die to protect another person. It's the whole bible quote that "There is no greater love than this, that a man be willing to lay down his life for his friends."

I assumed she meant dying to protect the folks back home. Which is obviously a bit more cut and dry if you're, say, a French soldier on the Maginot line, but still technically holds true for all Allied soldiers in WWII.

quote:

I think I agree with you. We, and the Animorphs, don't know what the war is about at all (although Marco, Rachel and Ax think they do). History has been changed to the extent that the war has no significance to us. Are the Franco-Germans the bad guys? Are the British Americans the bad guys? Are there any bad guys? What does it even mean in this case to be a bad guy? We don't have the context to understand what's going on here or pass judgement.

But if anything this is more of a motivation to just ignore it all and head straight for the Time Matrix. Even if Marco, Rachel and Ax haven't twigged that the French are fighting alongside the Germans, they know that Washington's dead and America never became independent and this whole timeline is borked so they'll have to hit the restart button anyway. Nothing they're seeing matters anymore because they're going to have to undo it all anyway.

Although that gets into the whole philosophy of time travel etc which is confusing so I can see why they (and especially Rachel) just have an emotional reaction instead and decide to kill Nazis.

freebooter posted:

Although that gets into the whole philosophy of time travel etc which is confusing so I can see why they (and especially Rachel) just have an emotional reaction instead and decide to kill Nazis.

Right. Rachel's Jewish, Marco's watched a lot of war movies, and Ax is morally conflicted about this whole thing, but wants somebody else to be in charge and will do what it takes to protect his friends.

freebooter posted:

Even if Marco, Rachel and Ax haven't twigged that the French are fighting alongside the Germans,

To play devil's advocate, Vichy France was a thing. Seeing some French and German troops working together doesn't necessarily mean the full nations proper of France and Germany were united against the Sunsetless Empire or whatever. We still don't have a clear idea of the geopolitical situation in this timeline.

Fuschia tude posted:

To play devil's advocate, Vichy France was a thing.

Which is something I think a lot of people from Allied Anglosphere nations don't really grasp; I don't, anyway. Or how Italy switched sides. It makes it all way more complex than it seems in the narratives that we've built up in the subsequent generations in Britain, the US and Australia. (I remember when Dunkirk came out, reading a bunch of veterans' recollections of it in the LRB and being surprised that they all assumed there'd shortly be an armistice and the war would end, and were surprised by Churchill's "fight them on the beaches" speech. They saw it as more akin to WWI than an existential fight for the future of the world.)
In the first chapter of this book, they never actually said that the Mirror Animorphs were Americans - they identified themselves as belonging to 'the Empire.'

So, based on the rest of this butterfly nonsense going completely off the rails, I choose to assume that this is in fact a fascist, world-conquering British Empire that's now trying to take the European mainland.
Thats about the only counterfactual I could think of that leads to the French and Germans putting aside their long, long history. It's plausible that WWI never happened in that scenario.

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Thats about the only counterfactual I could think of that leads to the French and Germans putting aside their long, long history. It's plausible that WWI never happened in that scenario.

A lot of the German states were allied with Napoleon, either voluntarily or otherwise, in the Confederation of the Rhine. A victorious French Empire might have either stayed allied to or annexed a bunch of what's now Germany.

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Thats about the only counterfactual I could think of that leads to the French and Germans putting aside their long, long history. It's plausible that WWI never happened in that scenario.

I always thought the British and the French had a much longer history than anyone does with the Germans, who weren't taken seriously until they amalgamated in the 1800s. (I still remember my history teacher - in Australia, in the 90s! - who tried to convince us that it would have been more "natural" for the British to side with the Germans because they were more racially similar.)

edit - and before anyone says anything about Australia, he was an expat from the home counties

freebooter posted:

I always thought the British and the French had a much longer history than anyone does with the Germans, who weren't taken seriously until they amalgamated in the 1800s. (I still remember my history teacher - in Australia, in the 90s! - who tried to convince us that it would have been more "natural" for the British to side with the Germans because they were more racially similar.)

That and a large part of Britain's alliance network leading up to WW1 was aimed at containing Russia, with whom the British Empire shared a huge border in the Middle East and Asia. Germany was largely disregarded by Britain as a nonentity and irrelevant to the Empire's security, so they were largely left out of the diplomatic calculations that lead to the Entente Cordiale and the Anglo-Russian Alliance.

Cythereal posted:

That and a large part of Britain's alliance network leading up to WW1 was aimed at containing Russia, with whom the British Empire shared a huge border in the Middle East and Asia. Germany was largely disregarded by Britain as a nonentity and irrelevant to the Empire's security, so they were largely left out of the diplomatic calculations that lead to the Entente Cordiale and the Anglo-Russian Alliance.

Hang on... how does allying with Russia contain Russia?

If that actually works then we need to get Xi on Biden on a conference call

freebooter posted:

Hang on... how does allying with Russia contain Russia?

Allies presumably do not attack each others' colonial holdings, which was the point of the Anglo-Russian alliance. It's easy with the benefit of hindsight to realize how fragile the Russian Empire was, but in the early 20th century the Russian Empire terrified most of Europe with its apparently limitless population and explosive economic growth. A potential Russian invasion of India or Britain's holdings in the Middle East or China was one of the major strategic preoccupations of British decision makers in the early 20th century, and they elected to try to make Russia an ally through diplomatic means to annul that potential threat.

The point of the Anglo-Russian Alliance was not to contain Russian aggression in other directions (i.e. against the Ottoman Empire, which was one of the Russian Empire's primary long-term geostrategic objectives, or against Germany which was mostly brought about by the Franco-Russian Alliance rather than any particular objective of Russia's), just to neutralize the potential Russian threat against Britain's holdings.

Edit: To elaborate about WW1 and what might be going the fuck on in this book's ?WW2?, on a very basic level, here's what each power going into WW1 wanted from their diplomatic arrangements.

Britain - Wanted to prevent invasions of their colonial empire, competition for more colonies, and generally preserve their position as King Shit of the World.

France - Wanted revenge against Germany (and, preferably, go back to there not being a modern united German state) and money from bankrolling other nations' armament programs.

Russia - Wanted control of the Bosphorous to link the Black Sea with the Mediterranean, either via direct control or via a pliable puppet.

Germany - Wanted membership in the Big Swinging Colonial Dick club and generally recognition as a great world power.

Austria-Hungary - Wanted southeast Europe to please stop exploding and be acquiescent pawns while A-H is preoccupied with its own internal issues.

Ottomans - Wanted everyone to stop hitting them and please loan them money and military expertise so they can rebuild.


This is what fundamentally set off WW1 with Serbia and Austria-Hungary.


Now, given what we know about this wacky alternate timeline, we know that Napoleon probably won his wars, France and Germany are allied (or even united in some capacity), and the United States does not exist except as a dominion of the British Empire.

I'd guess that yeah, WW1 probably never happened in this timeline. A victorious French Empire under Napoleon probably precludes the formation of a recognizable modern Germany, and the presence of Hitler here as part of the Franco-German forces suggests that Austria-Hungary is either gone entirely or also part of this new continental bloc. I'd assume that this war, then, is the Mega-British Empire versus a European continental bloc, either as a single unified power or an alliance of powers that incorporates what we know as France, Germany, and Austria-Hungary (almost certainly Italy as well). Which leaves Russia as potentially going either way, maybe still Tsarist or maybe the Soviet Union having arisen one way or another despite all the butterfly nonsense.

This is not a world the Animorphs know anything about, and it kind of speaks to their prejudices as Americans that they'd assume that an invasion of continental Europe during the mid-20th century has to mean that the invaders must be the good guys.
That actually sounds pretty awesome. Somebody should make a HOI4 mod based on the Animorphs timeline.
For some days a fly has been buzzing around the Imperial command post at Dieppe. Officers complain they can no longer focus, and their reports are now starting to contain even basic errors.

> That's it, we're moving the command post.
> It's just a fly.
> FOOLS! They are Andalite bandits in morph!! Bring me the head of the watch commander!!!
If anybody is curious, here's a map of the French Empire, thanks to Wikipedia, just before Napoleon invades Russia:



Everything inside the red border is owned, occupied or allied with France.
Chapter 38
Cassie


quote:

<Is that ...>

<Yeah. I think so,> I said.

<Oh, my God.>

<A long way from God,> I muttered.

Adolf Hitler. The most evil man in a long history of evil men.

Tobias was up. He moved like lightning. The squat man with the funny mustache was jerked back, yanked around, and pinned against Tobias's Hork-Bajir body.

Tobias's wrist blade was at his throat.

<NO!> I yelled.

The soldiers dropped cigarettes and canteens, swung around, and leveled their guns at Tobias,

<You know who this is? You know what he is?>

<No. And neither do you! Look at him. He's like some old corporal or something!>

<He's Hitler. He dies. End of story,> Tobias said grimly.

Hitler was frozen with fear. Trembling with a Hork-Bajir blade pressed against his jugular.

<Tobias, it's all different,> I said. <Visser Four changed it. All of it. No one is where they should be, doing what they did in our reality. We don't even know if these guys are the bad guys or the good guys in this reality.>

<He's still Hitler!> Tobias said.

<Is he? I don't know. Jake, in that other reality, the reality that comes from all this, was Jake still Jake? Was Marco still Marco?>

<You've got to be kidding! You're going to compare Jake to this walking piece of scum?>

<He's not evil for who he is, no one is. You can't be evil for being someone. It's what you do. And this guy's just a driver!>

From behind us, a new and sudden sound.

BOOM! BOOM!

The first tanks were firing down on the beach.

<Tobias, you can't do this,> I said. <You can't execute someone for what he might have done or even what he might do.>

"Release my driver, please," the German captain said tersely to Tobias.

Visser Four leaped, shackled hands outstretched for the Time Matrix. I bounded after him.

He took three steps. I took two. I clamped my jaws on his leg.

Pop! Pop! Pop!

The captain fired. Point blank at Tobias.

Tobias jerked in reflex. His wrist blade cut deep.

The driver - Hitler - fell to the ground.

Visser Four rolled with me on top of him. Rolled over, pulling me with him into a shallow ditch.

And overhead I saw the surreal vision of a bald eagle, six feet from wingtip to wingtip.

And obligatory killing of Hitler (as well as a reminder that you're evil for what you do and not for who you are.

Chapter 39
Rachel


quote:

Ax and Marco were down. But not for long. They fluttered up out of the sand, fluffing their feathers, all damage repaired.

It was true. We could not be killed.

The same was not true of the soldiers. Two lay crying in pain. The others were silent.

I swooped down to land beside my friends. I suppose we must have looked like vultures arriving at the scene of death.

I closed my right talon around a grenade. I lifted it experimentally. It was heavy. Not as heavy as a salmon, though. I would be able to fly with it.

Marco and Ax each tried to lift one as well, but they were much smaller birds.

<One is all it will take,> I said. <Or at least one at a time.>

I grabbed the grenade firmly and began to fly. Taking off was hard, not impossible, but hard. I scooted across the bloody sand, flapped hard, turned into the breeze, and still barely became airborne.

But once I had wind beneath my wings, once I had clearance, I soared. The breeze lifted me up.

Above the dead. Above the beach of slaughter. Out of line of the whizzing bullets. Too high for the shattering explosions of artillery.

Up I rose. Up and up, over the bluff.

The first tanks were lining up, depressing their main guns to fire downward.

<Forget them,> Marco advised. <We need to block the road. Keep the others from coming up.>

<Thank you, General,> I said, laughing. <l think I got it. Just need to pull the pin.>

<Not too early,> Marco pointed out. <How do we pull it?>

Ax said, <I can reverse direction. If I come back toward you and catch the pin in my talons, I believe the combined momentum will be sufficient to remove it.>

<Good plan,> I said. I turned into a tight circle, one wing low, the other high, tail spread wide to give me all the lift I could get.

Ax's harrier body flapped away, twenty, forty yards ahead of my flight path.

<This looks good,> I said.

<Rachel, how do you know how long that thing is fused for?> Marco demanded. <You could blow yourself up!>

<Hah-hah!> I laughed. <We're immortal, Marco. Jake was the death. We can't be killed!>

<That's not a bullet, it's a grenade. If it blows there won't be enough of you left to put back together.>

Ax turned back, flying straight for me. I flew straight for him. I held the grenade as low and far from my body as I could. I twisted it carefully, bringing the round ring out and forward.

<Just grab the ring, Ax. Just grab the magic ring.>

The distance closed with shocking speed. The harrier, the eagle, racing toward collision.

Closer ... Closer ...

Ax spun over on his back, reached, a sharp yank against my talons and a loud "Pop!" The grenade top dropped away.

I glanced back and saw the ring and pin hanging from Ax's talon. I looked ahead. A tank rolling past Cassie.

I had perhaps three seconds.

I was giddy. Filled with wild joy. I wanted to scream and laugh all at once. Maybe I did because as if from far off I heard Marco say,
<She's crazy, Ax-man. Look at her. She loves this stuff.>

I looked toward my target. The hatch was open. The young, cocky soldier was shoulders up and out of the armored safety. He was turning a swivel machine gun toward the side of the road. Aiming at-

Only then did I realize that Tobias had grabbed a German soldier. That he was holding him and -

A sudden rush of movement. Visser Four, Cassie, an officer firing.

Pop! Pop! Pop!

Blood sprayed from the throat of Tobias's hostage.

The tankman's finger tightened on the trigger of the machine gun. I saw it all, every detail, every nuance of movement as though it were inches, not feet, away.

The hatch.

The trigger.

I released the grenade.

Meanwhile, Rachel, Ax, and Marco are figuring out the basics of Close Air Support.
I think Tobias killing Hitler has to be the series' craziest moment.

Cythereal posted:

I'd guess that yeah, WW1 probably never happened in this timeline. A victorious French Empire under Napoleon probably precludes the formation of a recognizable modern Germany, and the presence of Hitler here as part of the Franco-German forces suggests that Austria-Hungary is either gone entirely or also part of this new continental bloc. I'd assume that this war, then, is the Mega-British Empire versus a European continental bloc, either as a single unified power or an alliance of powers that incorporates what we know as France, Germany, and Austria-Hungary (almost certainly Italy as well). Which leaves Russia as potentially going either way, maybe still Tsarist or maybe the Soviet Union having arisen one way or another despite all the butterfly nonsense.

If the US is still part of the British Empire I wonder how that played out with slavery, which still exists in the Bad Animorphs Timeline, since in real life the British abolished it long before the US Civil War. I guess maybe retaining the Southern states as part of the empire puts a lot of internal political and financial pressure on the British to not abolish it after all?

Also IIRC Einstein fled Germany because of the Nazis, so if he's stayed put in this timeline that does suggest the Europeans are more of the good guys than the UK/US are.

freebooter posted:

I think Tobias killing Hitler has to be the series' craziest moment.

I'd still give that title to when they caused the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs (and exterminated two alien races).

quote:

If the US is still part of the British Empire I wonder how that played out with slavery, which still exists in the Bad Animorphs Timeline, since in real life the British abolished it long before the US Civil War. I guess maybe retaining the Southern states as part of the empire puts a lot of internal political and financial pressure on the British to not abolish it after all?

Also IIRC Einstein fled Germany because of the Nazis, so if he's stayed put in this timeline that does suggest the Europeans are more of the good guys than the UK/US are.

They also talk about wars 'down in the jungle' in a way that calls to mind Vietnam or other imperialist conflicts, so perhaps Brazil or Argentina or some such as a USSR analogue in this timeline?
I'm really enjoying all of this alternate war outcome chat, even though I'm not really a milhist person. Thanks everyone for elucidating all these interesting theories!

Epicurius posted:


The driver - Hitler - fell to the ground.

Visser Four rolled with me on top of him. Rolled over, pulling me with him into a shallow ditch.

And overhead I saw the surreal vision of a bald eagle, six feet from wingtip to wingtip.


I also really enjoy this symbolic pairing of "Hitler's dead, here's the American Bird!"
If I were to go full HoI4 with this, I might outline the major powers as something like:

THE BRITISH EMPIRE: The British Empire is the largest, wealthiest, and perhaps most powerful force in the world today, fed by the seemingly inexhaustible resources of its dominions in North America, India, and the Pacific. Despite the perpetual civil unrest brought about by the Empire's rigid hierarchy of class and race, maintained by brutal force, London still maintains the largest military force the world has ever seen, and many in the Imperial Parliament continue to clamor for war with the Continent and avenging the one black mark that lingers on the Empire's record: Napoleon.

THE FRENCH EMPIRE: Though nominally still a monarchy like their age-old rivals across the Channel, in practice the Emperor in modern times is little more than a figurehead bound by a constitution (itself inspired by the American Rebellion) and a powerful civil service. Napoleon's legacy is the largest power in continental Europe whose influence and colonies stretch across Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, and the modern day French know full well that a reckoning with their eternal rivals must be coming at some point.

THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE: In Eastern Europe and Northern Asia, the Tsars still cling to power over their vast domain, but challenges to their authority seem endless. Democratic agitators, Communist sympathizers, and military hardliners who consider the Tsar little more than a British puppet all strain at the Russian yoke, and the Empire's latest acquisition of much of China through a diplomatic settlement with the British threatens to push Europe's oldest empire to - and beyond - the breaking point.

THE REPUBLIC OF BRAZIL AND PORTUGAL: Despite British intervention, the Red Brazil faction prevailed in the Portugese Civil War and successfully ousted the old monarchy in favor of the world's first socialist republic that stretches from the Amazon to the Iberian coast. The rise of a true independent power in the Western Hemisphere has upset age-old geopolitical calculations across the world, further fanning the flames of communist thought and even rebellion throughout the old colonial stomping grounds.

THE GERMAN FEDEERATION: Perhaps the only truly democratic power in the world today, the German Federation is a patchwork assembly of states and principalities united and divided by a common language and heritage. Historically considered little more than France's puppet, the German heart of Europe has begun to emerge from the shadow of the old Confederation of the Rhine into a true pluralistic state that has enveloped even Austria and Denmark in a legal and economic union, and seems poised to potentially expand even further. However, the looming specter of war between France and Britain may test this nascent German unity to a fatal degree as the German Federation faces the greatest crisis in its existence.

THE AMERICAN DOMINION: The true power of the British Empire, many would argue, is to be found in Boston, not London. It was the First American Rebellion that provoked the Empire to exercise greater control over its colonies, and the horrors of the Second that lead to slavery becoming a mainstay of the British class hierarchy. The Dominion's limitless natural resources, booming industries, and spectacular economic growth have caused many, within the Dominion and without, to wonder if perhaps it is time for the Americans to renegotiate the Articles of Dominion to reflect reality. By one means or another.
I love your post, there's just one thing throwing me off. That French-German insignia. I could be wrong, but im reasonably sure that during WWII each nation wore their own uniforms and all. I have to think you've wound up with some Franco-German Empire somehow - who knows, maybe Hindenberg chose that option since Hitler wasn't around to be Chancellor. Or following Napoleon's adventures, maybe Germany became an equal and willing partner, or something.

Either way, it's definitely an interesting thought experiment!

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

I love your post, there's just one thing throwing me off. That French-German insignia. I could be wrong, but im reasonably sure that during WWII each nation wore their own uniforms and all. I have to think you've wound up with some Franco-German Empire somehow - who knows, maybe Hindenberg chose that option since Hitler wasn't around to be Chancellor. Or following Napoleon's adventures, maybe Germany became an equal and willing partner, or something.

Either way, it's definitely an interesting thought experiment!

Some joint services did have a unit patch during WW2. It wasn't common, but it did happen.

If you're insisting on a Franco-German nation specifically, it could be something like France unifying with Prussia - perhaps in Napoleon's time, perhaps an heir. But I really like the idea of the Confederation of the Rhine running loose.

I brought this up in the goon military history discord, and a few other interesting ideas came up:

With the British presumably kicked out of Egypt by Napoleon, and likely the rest of the Middle East, it's conceivable the Ottoman Empire is still around. Perhaps they managed to successfully reform and rebuild.

Also, with Napoleon being successful and founding a successful new French Empire, there's a good chance Italy never unified. The Italian peninsula could well be divided between France and two or more modern Italian states - say, Sicily and Venice.
Like I say. Love the thought experiment, I'm just gonna bow out of this discussion before we start a multi-page alt history discussion :) though I night ask you to dm me a link to that discord so we can have that discussion there!
In this timeline Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo by morphing into a bear and eating Wellington.

OctaviusBeaver posted:

In this timeline Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo by morphing into a bear and eating Wellington.

I would actually love to see the alternate timeline where Visser Four got his hands on the Time Matrix and the morphing cube...

freebooter posted:

I would actually love to see the alternate timeline where Visser Four got his hands on the Time Matrix and the morphing cube...


"Morph? Morph how?" Rachel asked, her eyes narrowed.

<To change your bodies,> the Andalite said. <To become any other species. Any animal.>

"Everyone on Earth has been able to do that for like 200 years."
Chapter 40
Tobias


quote:

Bullets hit me in the face.

I staggered back. I felt my wrist blade cut. Cut deep.

A flash of movement overhead. I was still hawk in my mind and I knew that movement intimately well.

An eagle!

Flying low and slow, dropping ...

FWUMP!

A muffled explosion.

The German officer jerked in surprise.

Then, the ammunition inside the tank caught fire.

Pop!Pop!Pop!Pop!

BOOOOM!

Flames shot from the tank hatch. Flames shot from the tank's gun barrel.

It stopped moving.

Flames erupted from the engine in the rear.

I climbed to my feet. A flash of Cassie with her jaws on Visser Four, holding him as he stretched futilely to reach the Time Matrix.

And then, a second explosion.

BOOOOM!

The tank's turret blew off. It twisted once in the air and landed.

It took a split second. Time enough for a wolf to react, to jerk back.

Not time enough for a human. Or a Yeerk.

The turret landed. It crushed Visser Four from the waist down.

The driver ... the man who would, in another timeline, have been the most evil creature in human history, lay dead.

Soldiers lay dead or wounded, slammed by the explosions.

Rachel came circling down through the smoke. She landed on a dead tree branch. I expected her to be exultant. She wasn't. She said nothing.

Marco and Ax landed seconds behind Rachel. We were almost alone, the five of us. Alive, uninjured, surrounded by death and destruction of our own making.

The wounded moaned.

Cassie began to demorph. As soon as she had hands she went to the wounded soldiers. One French, one German.

"You'll be okay," she told the French soldier. "It's not bad." She ripped a few strips of the man's uniform, grabbed a stick, and made a tourniquet.

The other man, the German, died before she could even offer comfort.

"Humans?" Visser Four gasped, seeing Cassie. "Humans all the time?"

<That guy, that dead guy, the one with his throat all ... he looks like ...> Marco stammered.

<He is,> Cassie replied. <Or was. Or wasn't. I don't know.>

<These guys aren't wearing swastikas or anything> Rachel said.

There was blood all over my arm. I began to demorph. It was the only way to remove the blood from my Hork-Bajir blades.

<It's all different,> I said. <It's D-Day, but it's not.>

<But these are the bad guys, right?> Rachel demanded. <I mean, these are the bad guys, right?

Right?>

<I don't know, Rachel.>

<French and German allied? Hitler's some ordinary old soldier? This isn't the way it was,> Marco said. <This is messed up, man. The Germans conquered the French, and then the British and Americans invaded on D-Day.>

<There are no Americans,> I said. <There never was a United States. And Adolf Hitler was just an old man driving a jeep.>

<It is we who have now altered history,> Ax said. <In ways we cannot Comprehend>

I slipped out of my Hork-Bajir body. The blades gave way to feathers. The T-rex talons became my own smaller talons. I shrank and shrank and the bloodstains dripped away as they found less and less to cling to.

<The Time Matrix,> Ax said. <We have it now.> He was already halfway back to his own Andalite form.

My own hawk eyes returned, so superior to the Hork-Bajir vision. I turned my gaze on Visser Four. The head moved. He was still alive.

Then I saw a smaller movement. I fluttered my wings and hopped over. I darted my beak down and snapped up the gray slug that was crawling down the doomed man's cheek.

<The Yeerk,> I said.

The others came over. Cassie was human. Rachel mostly so. Marco as well. Just kids now, in a ditch, behind a burning tank, surrounded by bodies.

<What should I do with him?> I asked.

Marco held out his hand. He took the Yeerk. "We can't let him get a new host. Can't take him back to our own time. He knows now that we're humans. We leave him here, he dies slowly of Kandrona starvation."

"They say it's a horrible way to die," Cassie said.

Marco held the Yeerk out to Ax.

<No,> the Andalite said. <I have enough to answer for.> Ax looked at Rachel, then looked away.

"No," Rachel said as Marco offered the Yeerk to her.

<Not me, either,> I said.

"I see," Marco said, nodding slightly. "No one's anxious to add another stain on their conscience? Everyone's had enough?"

He flipped the Yeerk almost casually through the air. Threw it into the flaming hulk of the tank.

"Starve or burn," Marco said, trying in vain to sound tough and indifferent. "His only choices. This is quicker."

"We have to end this," Rachel said, sounding sad and sick.

"No. Not yet," Cassie said. "There's still the Time Matrix. And there's still Jake."

<How do we do it?> I wondered. <Go back to each place we went and ...>

<We need to cut the chain of causality early,> Ax said. <If we can stop this Controller from finding the Time Matrix in the first instance ...>

No one said anything. We stood listening to the massacre on the beach. The roar of tanks trying to

force a path around the far side of the burned-out hulk. Good guys or bad? Had we turned the battle for better or worse?

"My turn, I guess," Cassie said softly. "I guess none of us will get through this without some terrible sin. This will be mine."

<What are you going to do?> I asked her.

She walked over to the former Controller. Now just a human being. "What's your name? I ... someone told us, but I've forgotten it. Who are you?"

Ultimately, I think, 'we don't know who the bad guys are' is the only answer here. Also, I think there's something significant that, first, nobody actually wants to kill Visser Four, when they've all killed Yeerks before, but that Marco is willing to do it anyway. I think they're just surrounded by so much death that to add to that seems obscene.

Chapter 41
Cassie


quote:

"John," he gasped. "John Berryman. I'm ... Is he dead? The Yeerk? Is he dead?"

"He won't bother you again," I said. I knelt down and wiped sweat from his forehead. It was running down into his eyes.

"You're humans," John Berryman said. "The Yeerks don't know."

I nodded. "We know. Yeah, we're humans. Mostly."

"Kids."

I nodded again.

"I'm going to die, here." It wasn't a question. I didn't deny it. He could not possibly survive the massive injuries.

"Mr. Berryman ..."

"John. You kids. You're heroes, you know that? The Yeerks, they hate you so bad." He laughed.

He coughed and choked up blood.

"Don't know how you did it," he rasped. "Following him through time. He was trying to change the world. Bitter, very bitter. Change time, make humans weaker, easier to conquer, then replace Visser Three. But it was too complicated for him. He didn't realize. Landed here. Expected Nazis. Told the Germans this was the main invasion, rushed the tanks forward. Only ... different Germans. They arrested him. Too complicated, see?"

"It was too complicated for us, too."

"Wanted to kill Washington. Wanted to change Trafalgar. Kill Einstein. Push the allies back into the sea at D-Day. Other plans, too, but you made him rush. Panicked him."

<Why Agincourt?> Tobias asked.

John Berryman laughed. "That was for me. It was to shut me up. I never gave up, see. I fought him. All night I'd keep it up. Keep it up in his head."

"Keep what up?" Marco asked.

"Shakespeare. I played Exeter in the play. But I memorized all the lines."

I shook my head. "I don't get it."

"Henry the Fifth. I know it by heart. Shakespeare wrote a play about Henry at Agincourt. Visser Four couldn't figure out how or when to intercept Shakespeare. Not enough definite data. So he was going to kill Henry to silence Shakespeare, to silence me."

"That's insane!"

Berryman nodded weakly. "Insane. That's what he used to feel: that I was driving him insane. Wouldn't give up."

"'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he today that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er -'"

Oh, God. I'm not going to be free. I'm dying. Oh, God."

"Mr... . John. I ..."

He looked up at me, exhausted. Beyond anything but pain. "What is it? Ask me your question."

I wiped tears from my eyes. "John. I'm so sorry. But ... John, do you know, did your parents ever tell you ... How did they meet? When and where?"

I saw puzzlement. Confusion. Shock. And finally sad acceptance.

"San Francisco. 1967. My dad's name was John, too. My mom is Theresa. She was Theresa Knowlton."

I could feel my friends draw back from me.

Cassie, the killer with a conscience, the Drode had sneered. Kill 'em and then cry over them.

I wasn't going to kill John Berryman.

John Berryman would never exist.

First, I want to say, I find Berryman very heroic here. He didn't give up fighting, even with a Yeerk inside him. And he knows what's going to happen, and he accepts it. There's something noble in that.

Also, Henry's Agincourt monologue goes back to something I was saying earlier....about Rachel's thoughts on what I took as the heroism of battle, and the willingness of soldiers to shed blood for each other It also hearkens back to the beginning of the book, when the Drode declares that Crayak demands the death of one of them in exchange for letting them fix the timeline, and both Cassie and Marco decide they're willing to die to save Jake.

Also, while the Drode is evil, and while he says the things he says to hurt them, he doesn't lie....Cassie is the killer with aconscience, who's willing to kill them and cry over them. The Drode's mistake is, he doesn't see that Cassie's conscience is real....that she does grieve over the dead.
Funnily enough I just started watching Band of Brothers for the first time. Bit (understandably) sentimental but I'm impressed that so far, for a Spielberg production, it hasn't shied away from messier things like Allied war crimes or the anti-Semitism that was rife in the US.

Re: killing V4, I think it's the cold blood aspect to it that bothers them. They've killed Yeerks in cold blood before, i.e. by smashing the Kandrona, but this is much more direct and is also an individual rather than a faceless mass.

quote:


“Henry the Fifth. I know it by heart. Shakespeare wrote a play about Henry at Agincourt. Visser Four couldn’t figure out how or when to intercept Shakespeare. Not enough definite data. So he was going to kill Henry to silence Shakespeare, to silence me.”

:lol::lol::lol:
John Berryman assuredly owns.
I'm mad that I've been putting off catching up with this thread again, only to almost miss one of my favorite books in the entire series. Just absolutely bonkers in the best of ways.

Pwnstar posted:

John Berryman assuredly owns.

Hosts driving their Yeerk insane is incredible.

WrightOfWay posted:

Hosts driving their Yeerk insane is incredible.

Also known as the Alloran Manoeuvre